eslHQ Home
User Name Password
Lost Password? | Join eslHQ.com, it's FREE!
View today's posts
Search Extras Help   

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Nov 22nd, 2008, 10:32 am
eslHQ Member
 
Join Date: Jun 25th, 2007
Posts: 17
EnglishTeacher79 is on a distinguished road
Default If-then Clause

People call it the "if-then" clause, but then most of the time we just see "If....., ...." - i.e. without the "then" starting the other clause. So it's:

1) "If he hits me, I will kill him."

rather than:

2) "If he hits me, then I will kill him."

Is it ungrammatical to use "then" as in (2)? I don't seem to see this kind of sentence often and I think I read somewhere that it's either unnecessary to use "then" or that it's outrightly ungrammatical to use "then".

So is it wrong to use "then"? If so, why do people call it this "if-then".

In the IELTS Handbook 2007, I came across this sentence:

"If texts contain technical terms then a simple glossary is provided"

And the above sentence doesn't have a comma (,) before "then".

So this brings me to a futher question on the comma - would a sentence be possible without a comma?

Grateful for some comments
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:47 pm
Sue
 
Join Date: Oct 8th, 2006
Location: Milan
Posts: 1,406
susan53 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: If-then Clause

If .. then is very common, both in everyday speech and in technical language, for example the language of computers where it has a precise meaning, see this explanation in Wikipedia, as it does in formal logic - Wikipedia again.


I'm surprised by your statement though that most of the time we just see "If....., ...." . Think about it - where do you see it "most of the time" ? In textbooks? Remeber - the language served up in textbooks is oftenvery simplified in terms of actual language use.

Here are all the examples of If sentences that I found in one article from the Daily Telegraph. (Excuse the reactionary tone - it's just what came up on Google).

If we take away risk, then capitalism is finished
If you don't want to accept that you might lose money at capitalism, then don't play the game.
If not, capitalism is over.
If only we had a serious opposition party to embrace, champion and uphold the vital values of capitalism, the cure might come far faster, and be far more durable.

Two with, two without. For me the addition of then simply emphasises the conclusion - which is, after all, what then marks.

But it's certainly not "ungrammatical" and if someone's told you that it is, then I'm afraid they're wrong. Grammatically it's known as a correlative conjunction (ie one with two parts). Others in the same group include both ... and, either ...or, and not only ... but also

As for the comma - looking at the first twelve pages of "if-then" results for Google, there are almost no instances of the structure being used without it - except in a couple of cases where the writer doesn't seem to use much punctuation at all. But again, it's not a matter of grammaticality. The use of commas in English is fairly flexible - they tend to be used if in the spoken language there would be a pause - for example after a longish subordinate clause. And as an if clause is a subordinate clause which is frequently fairly long, then the probability of a pause/comma is quite high.

Notice that I've just used a sentence with as ... then. If you stop thinking of If sentences as fixed structures, then the problem is resolved. Like any subordinating conjunction, an if clause can be tagged on to any main clause. There's no rule that says what happens in the first clause determines what happens in the second - the two are independent, and any two clauses can combine as long as they're semantically compatible - ie as long as the meaning makes sense. So there's no grammatical [/difference between eg:

If John has arrived, then we'll start.
As John has arrived, then we'll start.

Then introduces a result, which is equally compatible with a condition or a cause.

Hope that helps.
__________________
An ELT Notebook
The DELTA Course

Last edited by susan53 : Nov 23rd, 2008 at 05:23 am.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:50 pm
Sue
 
Join Date: Oct 8th, 2006
Location: Milan
Posts: 1,406
susan53 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: If-then Clause

If .. then is very common, both in everyday speech and in technical language, for example the language of computers where it has a precise meaning, see this explanation in Wikipedia, as it does in formal logic - Wikipedia again.

I'm surprised by your statement though that most of the time we just see "If....., ...." . Think about it - where do you see it "most of the time" ? In textbooks? Remember - the language served up in textbooks is often very simplified in terms of actual language use.

Here are all the examples of If sentences that I found in one article from the Daily Telegraph. (Excuse the reactionary tone - it's just what came up on Google).

If we take away risk, then capitalism is finished
If you don't want to accept that you might lose money at capitalism, then don't play the game.
If not, capitalism is over.
If only we had a serious opposition party to embrace, champion and uphold the vital values of capitalism, the cure might come far faster, and be far more durable.

Two with, two without. For me the addition of then simply emphasises the conclusion - which is, after all, what then marks.

But it's certainly not "ungrammatical" and if someone's told you that it is, then I'm afraid they're wrong.

As for the comma - looking at the first twelve pages of "if-then" results for Google, there are almost no instances of the structure being used without it - except in a couple of cases where the writer doesn't seem to use much punctuation at all. But again, it's not a matter of grammaticality. The use of commas in English is fairly flexible - they tend to be used if in the spoken language there would be a pause - for example after a longish subordinate clause. And as an if clause is a subordinate clause which is frequently fairly long, then the probability of a pause/comma is quite high.

Notice that I've just used a sentence with as ... then. If you stop thinking of If sentences as fixed structures, then the problem is resolved. Like any subordinating conjunction, an if clause can be tagged on to any main clause. There's no rule that says what happens in the first cluase determines what happens in the second - the two are independent, and any two clauses can combine as long as they're semantically compatible - ie as long as the meaning makes sense. So there's no grammatical difference between eg:

If John has arrived, then we'll start.
As John has arrived, then we'll start.

Then introduces a result, which is equally compatible with a condition or a cause.

Hope that helps.
__________________
An ELT Notebook
The DELTA Course
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Nov 25th, 2008, 09:16 am
eslHQ Member
 
Join Date: Jun 25th, 2007
Posts: 17
EnglishTeacher79 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: If-then Clause

Thanks once again!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Jan 15th, 2009, 07:08 am
eslHQ Member
 
Join Date: Jan 15th, 2009
Posts: 2
DanielEdwards is on a distinguished road
Default Re: If-then Clause

If then clause is very common but now we use if-,.But if-else is used in the programming language.

Last edited by Eric : Jan 15th, 2009 at 09:16 am. Reason: Removed links to personal websites. Please keep personal links in your signature.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Jan 28th, 2009, 01:43 am
eslHQ Member
 
Join Date: Jan 28th, 2009
Posts: 9
hamburgenglish is on a distinguished road
Default Re: If-then Clause

But never forget that if-then is really a conditional of which there are 4 basic types. Scholars would say thousands of types, I won't argue with them. But for teaching you should teach and learn, if you are learning, the 4 basic types.

Learning the conditionals is an area of extreme interest and boredom, but it definitely does not include only if-then!

Not forgetting that we do not need to start with "if" either!

For sure, if you learn the conditionals to a point where you can "feel" their meaning, you English and fluency will take one very big step forward. From small streams a river will form.

Rob

Last edited by Eric : Jan 28th, 2009 at 09:58 am. Reason: Removed website promotion from content of post.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads Replies
noun clauses vs. relative clauses 5
BP4 U12 relative clause 0

Find the Best TEFL, TESL, TESOL & CELTA Certification Courses - User Submitted Ratings & Reviews for Online, Distance & Abroad TEFL Courses. Over 3,500 reviews of 100+ TEFL schools!

Teach English in Thailand - Onsite and Combined TEFL certification courses in Phuket, Thailand.


Free ESL Flashcards


Similar Threads Replies
noun clauses vs. relative clauses 5
BP4 U12 relative clause 0


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:14 am.

All materials from this website are for classroom-use only. Digital redistribution of materials, in part or in whole, is strictly forbidden!

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2