[Denis DNT]

Have you ever met a student with very good TOEFL, IELTS, BEC, etc scores who can't stand a simple dialogue in English? Or the opposite, a student who can speak English really well but won't make a good score in these official exams? It's one of those things that baffles me especially here in China.
Is it the preparation for these exams that is too mechanical leading to the acquiring of good scores without no real improvement in language skills or the standards of the exams that have fallen?
With the numerous centres, text books and tutors available nowadays for examination preparation, more and more students memorise ready-made answers to possible questions and take examination rehearsals at training centres. These techniques and coachings get them the required scores but the question that remains in mind is: Are these students really able to use English (the actual purpose of the exam)?

[HUE]

I would have to say that tests don't provide an accurate measurement of language ability. Yet it seems to be the best system available given time constraints. People take the TOEIC or TEOFL for work or for school, and a minimum score gets his/her foot in the door. It would be impossible to interview/check each applicant. Unfortunately, some people get in who don't have real skills... and some people don't get in, even though they are very competent speakers.

[sunhelen]

It is false that it is not possible to check each applicant. The resume and cover letter are the first hurdle that the applicant needs to overcome. If there are many applicants who seem qualified, group interviews are possible. These kinds of interviews are especially valuable for determining speaking and listening skill.

In the long term, it is more costly in both time and money to hire people who are not qualified for their jobs.

No test will be accurate if students intensively study for that test, although some tests are easier to game than others.

[Denis DNT]

I think, in the case where English test scores are used as a criteria for admitting students into a university, there is something seriously wrong with that. The language skills of a student learned over many years can not be evaluated during a short exam from a few topics of discussion, and judgment passed on whether or not the student is able to use the language. There are several factors that affect the performance of the student during the exam. I would agree more with a system where the student is admitted into the university and required to take on-campus language remedial lessons. This will allow the student to learn the language and put it in use at the same time. Moreover, the language lessons would directly be related to the student's main course. I have a student who has taken the IELTS exam more than four times each time missing the 6.5 required score for one or two sections. She has moved from one teacher to another, from one training centre to another until she is really discouraged now both with the language and even the main course she intended to study abroad.
A lot of people now see the exams more as money-making mechanisms than a genuine assessment of language skills.

[sunhelen]

Whether at student can go to university is a very serious decision. Universities should not rely on shortcuts. They need to look at grades, essays, and interviews. Also, students should be educated about the benefits and weaknesses of different universities. A university might be considered the "best", but not be good for a particular student.

[Denis DNT]

Quote sunhelen

Whether at student can go to university is a very serious decision. Universities should not rely on shortcuts. They need to look at grades, essays, and interviews. Also, students should be educated about the benefits and weaknesses of different universities. A university might be considered the "best", but not be good for a particular student.

Helen, in Asia studying in a university in a foreign country (especially in the West) is more than just having a good course, good teachers and a good degree. It's a big step up into the upper class of society. So students care very little about the nature of the university, it's reputation, etc as long as it is in some western country; and would gladly prefer that to the top university in their own country. After all, when they get into the job market few years later, employers would prefer those that earned a degree abroad to those who studied so hard in their country of origin.
Folks, isn't there something wrong somewhere?

[Eric18]

"Isn't there something wrong here?" asked Denis.

Absolutely!

[kisito]

Examination is certainly not a true test of knowledge. However, as imperfect as exams are, they are still a highly valued way of getting feedback on student performance and in some cases teachers. In China where I teach, I was doing a workshop to give teachers more ideas for adding fun in teaching the school course content. Basically how to build interest by using the right activities. All along I noticed that the teachers were only interested in how to make students pass exams. Why? simply because that is how they keep their job. If the class average is very high, you are a star and even get a bonus salary. Also, after our workshops, some teachers reported progress in the way students relate to their lessons. They found that students got more interested and were more willing to speak in class. Again their greatest concern was how to translate that knowledge into a high exam score. There are many reasons why a student can fail or pass an exam, which has nothing to do with whether they have the knowledge or not. Denis, I have come across several students who learn and use English great but fail exams and those who cannot make a simple sentence scoring 100% in tests. Some students get nervous and fail tests. There could be any number of affective filters interfering with a student's ability to give back what they know. I will never forget one day in university where I had so well prepared for my test and for some reason completely blanked out in the exam hall. I wasn't nervous or anything. The funny thing is that after coming out of the test hall, I could remember everything I couldn't while writing my test - of course I failed, yet weeks before, I had exhausted the course content.
You may be wondering where I am heading to with this. Well, examination skills are very different from knowledge skills.I tried once, preparing a student for the IELTS exam who scored high. That was my best experiment with exams. My student came to me about two weeks to her IELTS exams and asked me to prepare her for the test. She was week in several areas, so I basically taught her from an exam perspective. I taught her question answering skills in the 4 areas of language. Then we looked at the structure of the exams and did several sample tests taken from previous exams.We modeled a real test situation and I tried dealing with her nervousness. Well in the course of doing that I guess she picked up a few new words and language skills, but not enough to give her the band 7 score that she ended up with in most areas of the test. Some of the questions asked were among the sample questions my gut feeling had let me use in preparing her for the test. I was convinced as she told me later , that she hadn't passed because she had a perfect knowledge of the test content, but because she had polished her exam skills and it just worked.
In the same line of thought, the principal of a public school in China insisted that the English department not give me an exam class to teach. Somehow there is a notion here that foreign teachers are only good at teaching spoken English. Well, the head of the English department defied the principal and went ahead to give me an examination class. Well I knew how bad it would be for the school and the HOD if the class average wasn't high. So first I taught my students normally throughout the semester and toward the exam period, taught them exam skills. My class scored the highest average ever in the school. 10 students out of a class of 50, scored 100% in the test. No one failed and I got the normal bonus salary reward. But I think that score was only achieved through a combination of both.
Finally I would like to end by saying that you can teach students exam skills and with a bit of knowledge, they do fantastic; while brilliant students can fail a test without the right exams skills. My experience has taught me that examination can never be an accurate instrument for measuring knowledge. However, I understand why some institutions rely on it so much. Sometimes, it is the only convenient measuring instrument. If people are trained to beat polygraphs, it is also possible they can be trained to conquer exams. Also, examiners can try to make tests more effective, by changing the way tests are administered. I love the structure of the GESE oral English tests for example.

[emile]

Having pretty extensive experience in this field, I would put the most emphasis on speaking/oral exams. Any experienced oral examiner can tell in 5 minutes where the candidate lies in the scheme of things.

I have a lot of experience with BULATS, and I find it to be pretty accurate, too. I have always heard that it's too easy to game IELTS and TOEFL; the questions are too formulaic.

[kisito]

I participated in a workshop by Trinity to talk about the GESE exams and think it is one of those that students cannot easily cheat or lie to pass. At least that is how is looks on paper. Having taught IELTS for a while, I seriously think the exams need revamping, even the oral test that is a new addition has holes.

[Denis DNT]

IELTS has lost credibility so much and there is so much talk now about the numerous centres for the test popping up everywhere. You need to see some of the text books students are using.

[clivehawkins]

I don't think so.
A student who understands how the exam is structured and what the examiner is looking for will almost always score better than a student of a reasonably higher level without the exam preparation.

This is based on experience of TOEFL, Trinity and Cambridge exam preparation experience.

[Denis DNT]

Quote clivehawkins

I don't think so.
A student who understands how the exam is structured and what the examiner is looking for will almost always score better than a student of a reasonably higher level without the exam preparation.

This is based on experience of TOEFL, Trinity and Cambridge exam preparation experience.

How would you feel if your best student in class failed to get even a 5 in any of the sections of an IELTS exam?

[clivehawkins]

really annoyed. I don't think exams are a fair reflection of ones ability - maybe I wasn't clear in my previous post.
I work in Italy, and here the student is expected to regurgitate facts and ideas from the textbook (I'm referring to all subjects). As for the ever-popular multiple choice exams, a monkey would get 25%. With a little more effort he's passed the test! In written and oral exams, woe betide anyone who has an original thought or contests what's written in the book. This would mean more work for the teacher, who is generally a work-shy, badly prepared, disinterested, unmotivated person, especially at higher education level.

Wow, didn't realize I needed that rant quite so badly!

[Beatrix]

Quote Denis DNT

Have you ever met a student with very good TOEFL, IELTS, BEC, etc scores who can't stand a simple dialogue in English? Or the opposite, a student who can speak English really well but won't make a good score in these official exams? It's one of those things that baffles me especially here in China.
Is it the preparation for these exams that is too mechanical leading to the acquiring of good scores without no real improvement in language skills or the standards of the exams that have fallen?

No, I haven't. I think those, as you put them, are extreme cases and indicate that there's something wrong either with the student or with the exam. From my experience those people who do well at CPE know English quite well.

[emile]

Have you ever met a student with very good TOEFL, IELTS, BEC, etc scores who can't stand a simple dialogue in English? Or the opposite, a student who can speak English really well but won't make a good score in these official exams?

Yes, I have. Plenty, in fact.

[sunhelen]

My father's university required students to demonstrate knowledge of second language to get their degree. One of his classmates was French. He tutored several students for the French test, and they all passed. He took the same test and failed. After the test the French student and professor administering the test got into a big argument IN FRENCH. None of the students who had just passed a test of French competence understood a single thing that they were saying.

[kisito]

Quote sunhelen

My father's university required students to demonstrate knowledge of second language to get their degree. One of his classmates was French. He tutored several students for the French test, and they all passed. He took the same test and failed. After the test the French student and professor administering the test got into a big argument IN FRENCH. None of the students who had just passed a test of French competence understood a single thing that they were saying.

That story is hilarious! I have met a couple of teachers like that.

[michèle 2]

[A student who understands how the exam is structured and what the examiner is looking for will almost always score better than a student of a reasonably higher level without the exam preparation.
I agree with you. I've a student who is training to take a TOEIC test next week and we've done 5 complete tests so far. the more she trained the better she is and her score is much better than two weeks ago. So I'm sure she will get a good score next week but her level in English isn't high. And she knows that even if she gets a good score for the TOEIC she will have to study English afterwards. Personally I think that a student should be tested on his /her speaking abilities and perhaps an essay on current topics to test writing.

[Denis DNT]

Quote sunhelen

My father's university required students to demonstrate knowledge of second language to get their degree. One of his classmates was French. He tutored several students for the French test, and they all passed. He took the same test and failed. After the test the French student and professor administering the test got into a big argument IN FRENCH. None of the students who had just passed a test of French competence understood a single thing that they were saying.

I love this story. You should publish it on some funny jokes website.
May be I should try the IELTS myself.