[openmind]

Hi, I know that Eric, Mark and their teams have been creating a lot of ESL teaching materials they are using in their classrooms and sharing with other ESL professionals. But what do you think about the others who are using photocopied pages in their classrooms? I mean, I understand that is not very professional but what about the legal side? Is it allowed to copy single pages out of a textbook and then use those pages to teach English and earn money? As I see it, this practice is a violation of international copy right law, or at least it is an infringement. Still, it's being done many times in many schools in many countries. What is your take on this entire issue?

[mesmark]

Some books are 'reproducible' meaning you are allowed to make photocopies to hand out to students. My (MES-E) resources are all reproducible for this purpose. However, teachers/schools can't charge students in any form for the resources.

Some teachers copy pages from texts that aren't reproducible and yes that is copyright infringement, and could spell more trouble if they charge for those copied pages.

Is it allowed to copy single pages out of a textbook and then use those pages to teach English and earn money?

The salary earned for the teaching position probably doesn't play a part in this. They would earn that money regardless of the materials used.

I think the problem is greed. Everybody wants something for nothing. The more something for nothing the better. One of the top keywords for internet searches is 'free.' Many people don't want to pay, even though they should/could. I have people download and download from me when I know they can't possibly use all that they have downloaded (at least not this year.)

Maybe more people ought to concider a tip or services

Also, I probably should say that eslHQ.com is all Eric. I just hang out here.

[Eric]

Quote mesmark

Some teachers copy pages from texts that aren't reproducible and yes that is copyright infringement, and could spell more trouble if they charge for those copied pages.

Yes, this is copyright infringement. Is it stoppable, no way. I think publishers just need to figure this in to the cost of doing business, especially in countries with a low cost of living where a $15 English book is a week's worth of food.

Quote mesmark

Also, I probably should say that eslHQ.com is all Eric. I just hang out here.

But you post a lot and that's awesome!

[livinginkorea]

I generally buy books that I can photocopy a lot from like phonics, games or pair work books. There are some that you can photocopy but others that you can't eventhough all the schools do it.

I heard before that you can photocopy up to 10% of any book but I don't know if this is true and beside who can check it?

I spend about an hour a week photocoping story book pages and phonics homework sheets for my students. It's a pain but it's good homework for them.

[openmind]

In my line of work most trainers work 8 to 9 hours with one group per day, often 5 days a week. What many trainers do is use lots of photocopied materials, for example explanations and exercises of the Murphy Grammar books. I used to follow the same practice but at some point I became fed up with constantly violating copyright rules and promoting other authors and publishing companies. I also had a contract with an outplacement training provider which made me create all my materials myself and give them the copy right. Since then I have been concentrating on creating and marketing our own materials.

[livinginkorea]

Quote openmind

In my line of work most trainers work 8 to 9 hours with one group per day, often 5 days a week. What many trainers do is use lots of photocopied materials, for example explanations and exercises of the Murphy Grammar books. I used to follow the same practice but at some point I became fed up with constantly violating copyright rules and promoting other authors and publishing companies. I also had a contract with an outplacement training provider which made me create all my materials myself and give them the copy right. Since then I have been concentrating on creating and marketing our own materials.

Does it take you a long time to design your own materials now compared to photocoping before? I think that it's very hard to find the right teaching book for me so I have resulted to using as many books as possible.

I like to stress that the only part that I photocopy daily is the homework that I give to the children. I have about 550 children a week and half of those are twice a week while the others are only once so that makes around 825 students that I have to give homework to. It's a lot of work but I can't see any other way to give them homework, especially when they are so young and only learning English now.

[openmind]

Well, most of the people I'm working with now need English for their jobs so I use Internet resources, newspaper articles, our website materials including our newsletter, key word lists, information I have memorized from books, audio courses etc. So to answer your question I think it's much more productive to compile a list of 'your own' materials as opposed to photocopying staff without thinking much about it.

[mesmark]

Does it take you a long time to design your own materials now compared to photocoping before? I think that it's very hard to find the right teaching book for me so I have resulted to using as many books as possible.

Once I got into making my own materials, i found a world of freedom and to be honest a lot more time. Since I stopped looking for what i wanted and instead sat down and made what i wanted, I had more time for other things.

If you follow a good book or have them to help you, that's a great way to go, but don't underestimate the power of the 'maker' side of the force.

[mesmark]

Quote openmind

Well, most of the people I'm working with now need English for their jobs so I use Internet resources, newspaper articles, our website materials including our newsletter, key word lists, information I have memorized from books, audio courses etc. So to answer your question I think it's much more productive to compile a list of 'your own' materials as opposed to photocopying staff without thinking much about it.

It definitely brings more to the game, if you have your own little library. Also, if you're in this deal for the long haul or even more than a few years, it just frees you up to have materials that suit you.

Livinginkorea - Nice avatar!

[livinginkorea]

Quote mesmark

....
Livinginkorea - Nice avatar!

Thanks it's my "ninja fighting teacher" one

[TLR]

I also heard about the 10% thing! I think most teachers photocopy from books. I know even teachers working for the school boards do it too. If you work at a school where there's a tired old sylllabus and set course book then maybe not but if you are tailor making your plans to meet the needs of your students then you're bound to. Personally I don't have a problem with it. Everyone records CD's (or used to - I'm a bit behind the times - all this downloading is beyond me!!). Getting fed up of "constantly violating copyright rules and promoting other authors and publishing companies" is a fine display of morals but I don't think most teachers have the time or money to worry about that (though good for you of course). Most establishments can't afford to buy all the resources needed and most teachers don't have time to invent their own.

[HarryPalmer]

When countries like India, Thailand & China, to name but a few, stop the mass production & counterfeiting of western goods, then maybe I'll worry about the odd copyrighted book page that I borrow for use in a lesson. Besides I always attribute the material to the source, that's surely enough to ensure that I don't lose any sleep at night.

[fishead soup]

lately I've been using the material from the TESL Journal Tell me More.

[fishead soup]

I think almost everyone uses photocopied material. I've never heard of anyone being arrested or sued. Technically to can ask your students to buy the text. Much easier said than done.
I also have used advice boards like Dear Abby.

[JeremyinFrance]

As a freelance writer I am very aware that my material is photocopied and used in the classroom. I do provide free stuff so it would be nice to think that people will also pay for the stuff in books rather than ripping it off. In France, many of my colleagues simply photocopy a few pages of Murphy, hand them out, go through the answers and then off home - and they call that teaching...

[ruthwickham]

I taught in Australia where the copyright rules are strict. You can copy 10% of a book "for study purposes" - I always understood that to mean your own study. The education department in West Aus pays royalties that allow teachers to copy up to 30 copies per page of certain books. So, for instance, if I had three classes to teach, then I had to purchase three copies of a book.
Here in China, of course, they just "send the book to the printers" and each student gets a photocopied version, often with a variety of chapters from different books to suit the set course. In some cases these books are just about impossible to obtain here. I understand that if a book is out of print, then its fair game to photo-copy - so maybe you could argue that these unavailable books come into the same category.
Or not.

[clivehawkins]

I'm in Italy where university students are not encouraged as such to copy entire course books, but they are pointed in the direction of the nearest photocopy shop!
I get about half the class turn up with photocopied books, most of which have all the answers written in. After a year of banging my head on the desk in despair along with talking to several brick walls, ie the administration, I gave up getting worked up about it.
I even spoke to the publisher's rep about it. I was told that half was actually quite good, in most cases it was nearer two thirds.

[susan53]

[quote=Eric] I think publishers just need to figure this in to the cost of doing business, especially in countries with a low cost of living where a $15 English book is a week's worth of food.
QUOTE]

As far as cost is concerned it's a vicious circle. The more people photocopy, the higher the price the publishers have to charge to compensate. At the moment I find the prices of books here in Italy phenomenally high. I'd rather see books much, much cheaper but not photocopied. With lower costs, schools would be happier to buy class sets of a lot of books to use as supplementary materials, and individuals would be more willing/able to buy coursebooks rather than copying them. I'm not a publisher, but surely the enormous increase in sales, especially on books like Murphy, would make it worthwhile cutting costs to the point where photocopying was no longer cost-effective?

At the moment, from the teacher's point of view it's a problem of either doing something which is in fact theft (and the fact that it's rarely prosecuted doesn't change that) or giving up the freedom to use the materials which are right for the group at that moment. No coursebook is perfect for every situtation, so supplementing is essential from a didactic point of view - and it can also be what makes teaching fun.

As an author, it doesn't bother me if an individual teacher really only wants to use one activity out of my book with one class and photocopies it - and I can't say I've never done it myself. But copying the whole book, large chunks or even small ones again and again - that's my royalties down the drain. And even materials writers have to eat ...

I don't know what the solution is. A general price cut as I suggested before for major course books? Or a much higher price for all books liable to be used as supplementary materials but with photocopying rights, so that schools could buy one book and copy it legally? Every solution has loopholes and I suspect the problem will continue as long as printed materials are in use. How long that will be, I'm not sure. Is the future going to be all free downloads paid for by advertising? It wouldn't surprise me.

[Eric]

Good points, Sue. And it's especially nice to hear from an author.

Quote susan53

Is the future going to be all free downloads paid for by advertising? It wouldn't surprise me.

This would be wild... Ads showing up in textbooks. Maybe a little product placement... He's drinking a soda turns to He's drinking Pepsi.

A note about the students at my college. They seem to all have enough money to afford the Korean textbooks but when it comes to the English textbooks, that's when the photocopies start to show up. The original price is only about $10 - $12 but they complain about the price. The photocopied versions go for $4. Some have complained that $4 is too much but I'm not buying that seeing that their cellphone was probably $3-400...

At my old language school mothers would moan about the cost of a textbook ($10-$12) that we were going to be getting a whole year out of.

$10 bucks for a 6-12 months in Korea seems like very little money in my opinion. I'm not sure what the solution is because I don't think it's really a matter of money. It might be a matter of accessibility to the books.... I don't know...

[Pix]

I have to say Jeremy's comment about teachers in France made me laugh. They are a bit behind the times here!

I think books should be priced as per the country they are sold in because ultimately it is about the dissemination of ideas and knowledge. Making money is secondary. Besides it is well known that most writers can't live off their royalties alone.

Photocopying and file sharing are part of life and if we all went to hell for having transgressed I think heaven would be empty, aside from people with no photocopiers that is.

However, I think a lot of photocopying is a waste of paper. Instead of copying worksheets, use the board for a model and have students copy it down. Or better, use activities where students are speaking and listening in the classroom and leave writing for homework assignments.


Shelley